Overpowered to the Max!

November 5, 2008

I’ve seen this question/discussion/rant come up in many a blog post and comment section: is Order more overpowered than Destruction, or is Destruction more overpowered than Order? Do certain scenarios favor one side or the other?

Some of this boils down to a pedantic “waaah I’m on the losing side of a battle so it must be game imbalance and not me or my team’s inadequacy!” Being on a skilled team that works together will trump any loosely-grouped opponents any day of the week. Not knowing how to play your class effectively and how to adapt vs. other classes (in other words, using the same attack strategies for every opponent) will hamper you. And being me means that you will get your face stomped into the ground, time and again. Face it: people always whine when they lose, and it’s easier to blame the game than it is themselves.

But sometimes you hear something often enough that we should investigate further. One such example is Tor Anroc, a well-known T3 scenario (perhaps the only one, since the others pop so rarely that they are often myths told to schoolchildren). Destruction complains heartily that Order has more knockbacks and gets them earlier, which favors the lava-strewn terrain. Order, particularly from my experience, always rolls their eyes at how the bauble is closer to the Destruction starting point than our own, which results in Destroids picking it up first 99% of the time (I have yet to witness an Order character beating Destruction to the punch here, but perhaps your server is different). Is one side more overpowered than the other? I don’t really think so. I’ve seen as many Order wins as Destruction wins in this scenario, which suggests enough balance to make all of the idiosyncrasies acceptable.

Destruction boasts more numbers, around a 1.3:1 ratio, and can theoretically wield more troops in Open RvR than Order ever can on most servers. Destruction also boasts two insanely popular tank classes — Black Orc and Chosen — that seemingly outnumber Order’s tank population at every turn. Yet Ironbreakers are widely acknowledged to be the most overpowered (or at least spot-on) tank class, trumping others when you do hard comparisons.

You can look at mirrored classes and see if there’s severe imbalance going on. From Waralytics, I’d have to say no — the two pairings that are underperforming in strength and population are the White Lion/Squig Herder and Magus/Engineer, but since one part of those pairings isn’t vastly more popular, there’s no overpoweredness going on.

Sometimes a dominating guild, particularly one that prides itself on being the best, the elite, the uber-spiffy, can make a huge impact on the playing field and give the impression that they represent an entire faction to those who they’re slaughtering. That should be taken into account.

A lot of this is from my own limited experience, and I look at things through an Order viewpoint. It’s faulty and biased and I know that. I do wish that more people would admit that they don’t have the omnipresent, omniscient viewpoint that Mythic can boast with its metrics and data-gathering, and be okay with losing sometimes. But my gut tells me that no, one side isn’t “overpowered” compared to the other, and it’s in Mythic’s best interest to make sure that doesn’t ever happen.



  1. Wow, talk about great minds 😉

  2. I’m sure this can be debated, (and the comment is slightly off topic) but I don’t think the White Lion and Squig Herder are opposite pairs. The mechanics between the two are nothing alike aside from the fact that they both have a pet.

    Having played both at level 31 in beta, the skills that the White Lion has put him more in line of being the opposite of the Marauder rather than the SH. They are both melee dps and the they both have skills like Charge, and probably a few other similar skills. All the Squig Herder has in common with the White Lion is the pet.

  3. I don’t see a big problem in Tor Anroc.. People have to adept to the enemies, e.g. don’t let the enemy tanks circle you, so that you stand between them and lava. It’s an easy lesson yet no every one knows 😉

    I don’t see any severe “geographical” discrepancies in scenarios (in T1-T3, not been in T4 yet ;)) especially in Tor Anroc, it’s 50:50 who gets the bauble.

    It’s all up to team-play, the better you work together the higher the chances to win the scenario (excluding heavy level differences). That’s imo one reason why the other scenarios are played so rarely. In some scenarios you have to think about working together with other people, not just zerging/killing the enemy 😉

  4. Who wins an RvR battle seems to have more to do with party/warband makeup and less to do with one class or another being overpowered. From my experience, Destructions tends to field more Tanks and Healers giving them a slight advantage in RvR.

    BTW White Lions are paired with Marauders, and Squiq Herders are paired with Shadow Warriors despite the pets.

  5. In my experience I have to agree with you Syp. There are no “overpower” issues that I have seen. Knowing your class and playing it properly, as well as group dynamics is the key to success. I have participated in both epic failures and victories in the scenarios, and the defining factors have been how the group (Order/Destro) works together. I have seen a couple of instances where the sides were not too well balanced lvl wise (it might just be my perception), but I recall running into battle with half a dozen lvl 14-16s and finding six lvl 18-21s hanging around waiting for us = ugly.

    On a side note. Syp, after reading all you banter about Dwarfs I thought I would give one a try. I rolled an Iron Breaker and WOW! I have to admit the first couple of lvls were a bit slow because of the lack of DPS, but when I received a couple of special attacks things changed considerably. I even tried my first scenario at lvl 4 and beat the hell out of a couple lvl 6-8s including a black orc! ( I do not believe this was due to the IB being overpowered, but more likely my opponents’ inexperience.) This was remedied in the next scenario where I promptly got spanked numerous times.

    I do enjoy the feel of the Dwarf starting zone! Nothing better than a bunch stout-ale swilling-mine denizens shouting the praises of a giant cannon!


  6. I see you forgot to mention Bright Wizards. How convenient.

    In all seriousness, there are some glaring classes (which were not mentioned) that are better than their pairs. BWs are better than Sorcs, WitchElves are slightly better than WitchHunters, and RunePriests are slightly better than Zealots. Also, the lvl40 “get over here” skill that WhiteLions (140ft range instant cast) have is vastly superior to the Marauder’s (65ft range 2 second cast) skill.

  7. Nice picture. 🙂

    Nice of you to link to me. I was making the comment from having played both sides. When I was on Destruction, I saw it as Order being overpowered. But when I played Order, after having played Destruction, it’s then that I noticed it wasn’t the classes (although with Iron Breaker and Chosen not having their counterpart we don’t know) as much as it was the players.

    I really think there is something to Paul Barnett’s comments about players looking like their character, something you touched on, as it is players being affected by the mentality of their side. Destruction is less organized, more chaotic, and seems to have a lot of players with a different mindset. It’s also been noted that Dwarf and Greenskin players role-play better than the other races, or have more role-players.

    I also think that a lot of Order feeling their are the underdog does play into that mindset, as they feel that they need to work as a team more, because they are underdogs. It works often similarly in sports.

    I will say though that the Iron Breaker is unmatched when it comes to knockback distance. But will the Black Guard be similarly as powerful in that regard? We don’t know yet.

    I will say that from my experience, Destruction can reach the baubles faster in T2 Temple and T3 Tor Anroc, unless it’s a Marauder or White Lion (go-go super sprint powers). That I have tested and can admit is true. But it takes skill, timing and experience (you can launch before the countdown).

    My experiences though tell me that Order isn’t overpowered as much as Destruction might think they are and it’s more of player mindset, and perhaps, the maturity of players on one side over the other. Being an older gamer (30+) isn’t always a bad thing when it comes to MMO’s. We might get our butts handed to us in Team Fortress, but in MMO’s, brains, strategy and teamwork count for a lot more than twitch-based skill of youth.

  8. Damn, need to proof read or have an edit button. Their, they’re, there. Bah!

  9. actually order has a way to get the bubble in TA earlier than destruction everytime, it involves white lions running over the lava, so you need some specific classes and a bit of teamwork, but afaik destruction has no way to copy that at all.

    Playing a sorc and mostly joining guild groups, I’ve won most TA scenarios, but queuing solo makes me cry (sorc without a healer is no fun at all), and Order definitely has more knockbacks at that point, but this may chance once the new classes are introduced, as the ironbreaker is the main knockback class for TA and the black guard is still missing.

    There are some imbalances overall, but I wouldn’t really call anything overpowered from what I’ve seen so far. Most stuff just needs some minor adjustments that will hopefully be addressed when they take a look at the classes.

  10. I’d disagree — Sorceresses are on par if not more so than BW, and you will get no sympathy from me or my Order brethren on that count.

  11. i have just one small comment. when you talked about pairings near the end you said white lion/squig herder. just to clear it up they are not mirrors. marauder is mirror to white lion. (i dont really know if thats what you meant or just comparing them b/c they are both pet classes) anyways just tryin to help 🙂

    btw: i love your blog. very informative and entertaining

  12. @ Brent – I’m not saying they’re an exact copy of each other, but they ARE the mirrored pair, and having a dedicated, persistent pet is a pretty major feature both share. WL gets much more in terms of armor and up-close attack power, and SH gets more ranged attacks, but both bring the dps hurt (theoretically) to the enemy.

  13. could be that the perceived inmbalances are due to skill progressions certain classes seem to thrive at the lower levels and there counterparts seem to catch them up later in lvls ….. i know from a Wl perscpective we dont seem to get good until late 20’s where as the maruader is a beast at lower levels

  14. @Syp: as a sorc myself I can even agree with you in general, one bw tree is more powerful than the sorc tree (Immolation vs. Calamity – Playing with fire is insane and sorc doesn’t have anything like that at all), but both other trees are more or less the same.

    Main Problem for T3 is: BWs get a morale 1 knockback at 28 and optional a aoe knockback or a knockdown from career talents. Sorcs only knockback source is a tactic at 33, our morale 1 abilities are just dmg without side effect.

    So in terms of TA and knockbacks BWs are more “powerful” compared to sorcs.

  15. Mirror class mixup here:

    Marauder -> White Lion

    Shadow Warrior -> Squig Hearder

  16. I agree with Br3 that the WL and SH shouldn’t be compared even though they share the pet mechanic. Even though they share the same mechanic their role is different as is the armor they wear.

    Perception is a tough thing to shake — even with hard data people tend to be very reactionary. Last night on we had 2 order warbands in Praag. Destruction was cleaning our clock and I repeatedly counted them while I was taking dirt naps coming up with less than 20 destruction. My point is not that they were overpowered but in our warband people kept saying that they were outnumbering us. Even when I told them we had them by more than 2 to 1 and they were simply playing a heck of a lot better, no one believed me. Heck, even after one of our order players started hanging out in their vent and said the same thing, they still didn’t believe it. Point being, in the heat of the moment, with so many variables people have trouble thinking rationally.

    This isn’t to say things are perfect and I know that some BW have even talked about certain abilities that are a bit much but I tend to think claims of x or y as overpowered are exaggeration.

  17. When I played my SH on Helmgart (EU) most scenarios where dominated (60/40) by the order folks. In general I think neither side is overpowered. But as a Squig Herder I felt very underpowered. 😉 Today no more WAR for me but still occasionaly enjoy reading your stories.

  18. SH and WL aren’t paired — one is mDPS (WL) and the other is classed as rDPS (SH). At least, that’s how they were classified by Mythic during beta. That both have pets is confusing, given our tendency to see “a pet” and thinking “pet-class!” when Mythic doesn’t appear to make that distinction. Whether it’s claw-arm or lion-adjunct, the underlying mechanics are similar.

    Hair-splitting aside, from what I’ve seen it’s mostly a case of grass being greener. There may well be some class/archetype/mechanic discrepancies, but usually what’s being cried about isn’t something that tangible and translates more to “Waaah! I got spanked! I must be underpowered!”

  19. I’ve played both Order and Desctruction, though my main is Desctuction for now. From T3 onward, there is really no doubt that right now BW’s are by far the most powerful damage class, much more so than Sorc…IF they spec immolation. The other trees are all comparable between the two.

    Ignite (w/tactic) + Boiling blood + Playing With Fire + Withering Heat means any target they are on dies no matter what. Add to the fact they can just spam DOT’s all around and then chose who to kill with Playing With Fire + Withering Heat, their damage potential is leaps and bounds above anyone else right now.

    On good teams and with good BW’s, they can easily break 300k damage in one 15 minute scenario. Sorc cannot even come close to that in an opposite setting.

    Most every other class I agree with you on (though Ironbreakers have the most damage potential of any current tank), but BW’s are definitely in a class all their own right now.

  20. Someone would have to crunch all the numbers to really know, and I don’t the time or desire to do that. I think some people on the WHA boards have though and have proven that BW spells are superior to Sorc.

    Perhaps it is just my particular server (or maybe I’m just unlucky) but it does seem like order wins over destruction more often. They usually get to the objective first, and even it we do get the bauble they usually take it right away and we wind up fighting at our spawn. If I’m in a guild group I usually fare much better, but on my own I typically lose more. But I’m not complaining about it, if you don’t have an organized effort you have to expect the outcome to be poor.

  21. @Icewolf: Mirrored classes are not totally mirrored. For instance, BW and Sorc get roughly the same abilities, in a different order. WH and WE are the same way. Like you said, BW do get a morale knockback and Sorc have to waste talent points to get it. WH and WE are the same way, however WE get Fiented Positioning on a 25s cd from tactics, while WH don’t get anything like that.

    Basing “OP” over T3 is anything but reasonable. Hit 40, play around, then start screaming bloody murder (not like that isn’t all over the forums anyways).

    The only Over powered thing in the game, is the ideology. Order is depicted as a shamble, always getting attacked or always on defense (In game Lore) when they really aren’t. More appealing Destro classes (is that even debatable anymore? Probably not). Destro:Order server ratios, Nothing can be perfect but having 55 servers at launch kinda crippled some fun for some players.

    All in all, great neutral post Syp!

  22. I think it comes down to player type again. Order are less populated and thus less appealing. This attracts, in my opinion, more thoughtful players dedicated to team work and doing the best they can. Its the classic Alliance vs Horde battle in reverse. The greater numbers on the Destruction side equate to a greater proportion of numpty players.

  23. Have you ever been one shot by a witch elf as a “swordmaster” a supposed tank class before the tank is even in range. And then see that the WE in question is 4 levels below you.

    I have many,many times.

    Not balanced.

    I rest my case

  24. I would agree that neither side is more powerful than the other.

    Although…I will make an exception to that statement for Tor Anroc. The knockbacks…the knockbacks. How I hate the lava.

    I play Destruction side, so I’m not sure if this is true…but it seems like Order only queues up for Tor Anroc. And that *feels* like a dead giveaway to them having an advantage (or having people who love the lava).

    I’ve really liked the other T3 scenarios, and I’m sort of sad that I don’t get to see more of them. I drop Tor Anroc queue a lot…just to see if anything else will pop. After 40 minutes or so, I give up and get back into the lava pit.

  25. not to kill everyone comparison fun, but my view is a fight is a fight. win or loose, i have fun. it is a game after all.

    most scenario wins come down to knowing and loving your class, warts and all; and coordination. that’s it really.

    i do like to read the comparison threads, and so far this thread has managed to remain objective, which is good. but i think the order/destro fanboi whining on the warhammer alliance boards is seriously hindering this game: espeically to those who are thinking of picking the game up.

    i’ve played a WP, which is a difficult class to play effectively and doesn’t recieve the renown credit it’s due.
    i’ve also played a WL, which is still in tier 1 and doesn’t seem to have the dps you’d expect from an mdps class: yet i’m having a blast!

    i appreciate this comment is hardly constructive. i just like to show people that it’s possible just to love the game for what it is: carnage!

  26. The question of knockbacks is simple and Order DOES have more of them. but only one char. each pairing has equal knockbacks shama AM, zaelot/RP etc.

    ***Except Ironbreakers, heres why. IBs get a tactic at lvl 25 called powered etchings. this turns their rune etched axe into a PBAoE knockback/snare. this results in destro getting thrown in the lava perma snared in combo with the lavas snare. Also of note is that this is on a 10s cooldown. the healers KB is on a 60s cooldown.

    Chosen only have a normal knockback like the other tanks. so that one ability makes IBs the kings of Tor especially with the distance that it gets.

    On speed to the bauble I have seen order get it numerous times but Never once when i have my standard out. they dont seem to use their standard for the run speed buff where I do.

  27. The other aspect about BWs that sorcs dont have is a two fold argument. Yes as far as DDs sorcs are even and maybe a little better than BWs.

    BWs have an arsenal not available to the Sorc. Dot spec. the BW debuffs his own dmg type and gets a baseline AOE DoT. this gives the BW ignite, detonate, boiling blood. Once dot specced they get to also add in, for corp dmg that is debuffed, withering heat -snare channeled nuke- and Playing with fire which reduces healing by 50% and hits the healer for dmg which can crit.

    Sorc gets an AoE dot spell but only from the dot line and its a 2s cast not an insta like the BWs. go to war db and look at the DoT specs, I’ll guarantee you will see they are not equal.

    To combat this the sorc gets some tactics the BW doesnt, but the main prob is that once 2 BWs dot someone they DIE. I play a zealot and im telling you they die. i cant outheal the dots, they get 3 dots each that 6 dots critting 50% of the time usually for 300 a tick per BW. once they focus their dots and AOE dot its over that person is gone and i move on then rez its wasted heals. and thats not even including the PwF that hits me and makes the heals worthless.

    Like i said a sorc in DD cast tiem spells is probably a little stronger than the BW but you are talking about 3s cast time spells as opposed to 3 insta casts that can kill most classes while running away, the sorc doesnt get that.

  28. […] Nerd Rage So for some reason, bloggers this morning are beginning to lose their cool with the Warhammer community. From finally cutting their ties with writers who mix politics and gaming, to finally being fed up with the Doom-Saying and Balance-Crying. […]

  29. @Coburn you may have noticed I never said anything about BW (or any other class) being overpowered and ofc I know that classes are not totally mirrored, so I do not complain about the knockback morale skill at all (I wouldn’t mind it tho), but with the posting talking about Tor Anroc, it is a valid point as TA is dominated by knockback skills.

    And Immolation vs. Calamity is a huge difference, some spells are equal – dmg, effet etc – just BW one is instant cast, sorc one is 2sec cast time. The Calamity tree for the sorc is in line for the other trees, while immolation as a BW is much more powerful to their other two trees (not even comparing to the sorc here, the balance of that single tree is just off).

    I don’t mind it too much as skill and an organized team will always win against random groups, no matter of classes.

    My whole point was about the TA knockback situation, as Syp stated in his posted he wasn’t sure about that. And currently BW has knockbacks in T3, Sorc doesn’t. Ironbreaker has knockbacks and Black Guard is not available yet. The last think will change soon, so I don’t think it’s too bad and I enjoyed TA even without knockbacks. And (afaik) there is no scenario in T4 that has lava 😉

  30. This is correct (as pointed out a few times here):
    Marauder = White Lion = Melee Stances
    Shadow Warrior = Squig Herder = Physical Ranged with Shooting while moving
    Pets simply augment damage of the classes, but are not the main defining trait of those classes.
    Syp failed his career match-up exam. 😦

  31. Couldn’t agree more with Syp on this :).

    Both sides have their strengths and weaknesses due to the slight ability differences in mirror careers, ability progression (getting certain skills earlier or later than a mirror career), and the group composition (i.e. how the population is spread between the different careers in a given level range on a given server). Then you add the variables of player skill and group organization to this mix and there is no sensible way to make claims about overall faction balance based on 1 scenario, 1 tier, or 1 server.

    My guild was in T3/T4 as destro then we rerolled order and are now in T4 as order. Having played both sides of the fence I would say that “overall” both sides are on fairly equal footing. It’s just that certain strengths a faction/archetype/mirror/career develops in a certain level range is magnified by skewed populations and/or scenarios/terrain that favor that strength to the point that some people will view it as some sort of major imbalance and then the rumor mill is up and running at max power.

  32. Last night in Tor Anroc there were 4 Bright Wizards. They took the top 4 Damage spots and then I took the 5th as a Magus. There were no other Bright Wizards but those 4 in the match.

  33. I fail at nothing, and pets ARE the main defining traits of both the WL and SH career — it even says so on the character selection screen. The debate over the mirrored pairings isn’t a new one or a finalized one:


    It really depends on what you’re looking at. SW and Marauders both share the same mechanic of switching stances, and the SH and WL have persistent pets. SH can be both ranged and melee, and SW can be both ranged and melee. It’s not clear-cut, there’s a case for both, and I think that’s because Mythic mixed things up (taking a little from column A and B and making careers with AB and BA).

  34. Ahh I got nothing to add to this, except that pic of that muscle dude is creeping me the hell out!

  35. Also thought I’d add that the likely reason white lion and squid herder population numbers are similar and fairly low isn’t due to matching mechanics or a general agreement that they are underpowered. I think it is simply due to both having pets that need to be micro-managed with clunky controls and had all kinds of issues including bad AI/pathing that has only recently been improved to more manageable levels.

    Also, people need to ease up on Syp with the mirror mix-up. White lion, marauder, squig herder, and shadow warrior is a strange frankenstein hybrid mirror match at best. If you look purely at the abilities and spec lines it’s clear that marauder/white lion is a mirror and shadow warrior/squid herder is a mirror, but when you look at class mechanics/gimick Syp’s comparison has merit.

    Both the shadow warrior and marauder have pure stances with a 5 sec cd upon switching that provide different buffs. They both also have many abilities that are only useable in certain stances and have certain stats boosted depending on their stance.

    The squig herder and white lion have pets instead of pure stances but when their pet is alive they get a buff that mimics one of their mirror classes stances. Squid herders mimic shadow warrior stances by having 3 different squigs each with a buff that relates to a SW stance (10% range, 5% crit, double armor). White lions mimic marauder stances by buffing or “training” their pet and subsequently themselves with 3 different buffs to mimic the 3 marauder mutations. None of their abilities are tied to specific pets/training(stances) but the pets themselves have different speical abilities based on the type of squig or lion training. Also note that abilities identical to their Shadow warrior and marauder mirrors typically have less damage for balance account of the dps of their pets, but they both get a tactic to boost their damage(25%) back up to similar values if they want to go petless.

    I could go on but hopefully people get the gist because things just get more wonky the more you try to break it down. If you’ve read all this and your head isn’t spinning, congrats!

  36. You are wrong, Squig herders are the Shadow warriors mirror, as the squigs reflect the stances, while the White lions pet and the marauders mutations mirror each other.
    and then you forgot to mention Shadow Warrior. Still one of the lowest RDPS classes out there, less surviveability than BW, and less DPS.

  37. I’m trying a Black Orc on for size, and I really do feel that in the Scenarios the Bright Wizards feel a bit overpowered. I feel like I die heaps more as a Black Orc than I ever did in my main Engineer character. I don’t really know the stats and the mechanics, but I’m often pounding ‘eads, my health is fine, and then suddenly I’m dead with flames licking my carcass. Obviously the a single Bright Wizard can’t one shot me, there must be a couple of them, but it is incredibly hard to counter suddenly being dead.

    In one matchup near the lighthouse, just the two of us, I was at half health as a Level 8 Black Orc up close and personal to a Level 2 Bright Wizard and didn’t even do a quarter damage to the dude before I was smoked. Maybe there are variables I wasn’t aware of, but I can understand why people say the Bright Wizard is overpowered, it just kinda feels like they are.

  38. White lion and Marauders are the pair

    Shadow Warriors and Squig Herders are another pair.

    Having played both pairs I don’t think either out performs one or the other though

  39. http://thewarjournal.com/forum/topic.php?id=67

    Yes organisation should trump disorganisation. However, a disorganised heavily stacked BW group with a competent healer will still beat a perfectly coordinated destro group, even sorcs.

  40. Sick pic, Syp!

    My main is a 33 IB. I haven’t played Destro enough to compare balance, but I do have to agree that the IB tactic Empowered etchings is “over powered” for Tor Anroc. As an IB, in TA, I had a PBAoE knockback/snare, a single target knockback, single target knock down, single target snare, a single target root (morale), and an AoE root. That’s a lot of CC. My primary tactic as an IB was to knock as many people in the lava (six with one hit is my record) and snare/root the rest so our DPSers could kill, kill, kill. It works. I’ve won 70-80% of my Tor Anroc scenarios. It’s worth mentioning, too, that my wife plays a RP and is right at my side. 🙂

    On the surface, it can appear that the other side is overpowered. But, it really comes down to cooperation and coordination. Although, I won most of my TAs, I’ve been spanked pretty hard in there too. Like 500 – 10. I noticed on most of these losses that my teammates would run in 1-2 at a time and die instead of waiting for the tanks/zerg. They would also focus on the tanks and ignore healers. You know, all that stuff that loses scenarios.

    One final note. In my experience, group make up has less an impact than coordination/cooperation as well. I’ve won a few scenarios where my side had no healers and some with no tanks. But I’ve never won a scenario where we had neither.

  41. All it takes is a good WE in the back ranks to raise havoc among the BW’s. Especially if our healer(s) isn’t keeping an eye on me (too busy keeping the tank up). Charge in from the front ranks equals to a fast fireball death. Lately it seems to be the tactic of choice to kill the BW first then go for the healers.

  42. All classes are mirrored by role – the SM and BO are tanks, the BW and Sorc are nukers, the WP and DoK are melee healers, and so on. Mirrors also tend to share the bulk of their abilities (in terms of what they can do, mechanically – the details vary).

    The Marauder is the White Lion mirror. Both are MDPS characters, and taking a look at their ability lists, they share the same concepts.

    Likewise, SH is the SW mirror.

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